In the Southtown

In case you missed it, we were featured in the DAily Southtown this past Sunday.
Download dailysouthtown_11_2007.pdf

It was a pretty big article on the front page of section C.

All in all, I'd say it was a good article. They didn't get everything right, but they got the idea. Mark Twain said of the press, "I don't care if they get all the fact right, as long as they spell my name right."

They got a lot right. They didn't understand our baby dedications and some of the stuff is a little off. And I'm not sure why my casual attire catogorizes me in the look of "just came from clubbing." But if that means comfortable and "come as you are." then we're good.

The reaction has been interesting. Most people are positive. I'm happy with it.
Some people have friends at other churches who think that we're a crazy church already, so this just confirms it for them:) But I don't care what they think. I'm really hoping that more prodigals will read it and they will think that this sounds like a good "home" for them to come to and find their relationship with the Father.

I don't care what anyone says, as long as that happens.

Enjoy,

Tim

Comments

[A Case in Point]

AMEN to That! :)

[Debbie H.]

I thought the article was great, (with the exception of the baby dedications). I'm proud to be a member and volunteer of this "crazy church".

[MIKISTIX]

It was good article and one of the reasons I decided to call Parkview "home" was because of its acceptance of "prodigals", whereas many other churches may not be as caring and compassionate. Not to mention the fact that in all the areas of its ministries from music to sermons to small groups, Parkview strives and excels in maintaining a Godly standard of excellence!

[Eric]

Pastor Tim I don't know why anyone would make a big deal about how you dress. And I don't know why someone would think you'd come from a nightclub. The way you come across to me is more like you just got done taking a stroll along the beach. And you're right, by dressing casually it does lend toward the comfortable atmosphere in the service at Parkview and I'm grateful for one less thing to be uptight about. Your style of dress aside, you're an awesome preacher and that's what really matters.

[Linda]

Thank you, Pastor Tim, for dressing casually. I have been ill for so long and suffer from chronic pain and none of my dress clothes fit me or are comfortable--I am so grateful that we can "Come as you are". On some days, if I had to dress up, I would not be able to make the service. God is with you!

[We Are...Penn State email list]

I thought the article was a fair and accurate representation from someone from outside the Parkview family who is trying to understand what's going on at 183rd & Wolf Road.

Tim, it cracks me up that you said in Sunday's service that you don't know what "clubbing" is, then went on to describe your evening at a nightclub in New York City watching the Les Paul Trio. And you're the one who (accurately) told them that our band is "as good as what you'd find in a nightclub"!

Come on, it's OK to be hip!

[We Are...Penn State email list]

Eric: "Pastor Tim I don't know why anyone would make a big deal about how you dress."

I don't think the writer was making a "big deal" about how Tim was dressed, he was trying to point out one of the the ways in which Parkview is not "your father's church."

Funny "church clothes" story: I spoke at my brother's funeral wearing a navy blazer and my best Hawaiian shirt. My mother was upset by my choice of attire and told me so. (Isn't that what mothers are for?)

I told her that's what my brother would have expected. She replied that my brother liked to dress in suits. I said, "You don't understand. A Hawaiian shirt is what he would have expected from ME!"

If sandals were good enough for our Lord and Savior, then dressing like you "could have come straight from a night of clubbing" is good enough for me. Rock on, Pastor Tim!

[a]

Okay, I get it.
You wish to reach out to the prodigals. Your intentions are admirable. If it is Biblically accurate that the purpose of church (note little "c") is that it is to be a base of services and programs in which to attract non-believers, then the methods PV employes are consistent. Of course the "not caring what they think" comment seems inherently contradictory if "they" are the one's you are actually trying to reach.

But what if the purpose of the church is not to evangelize (pause for gasp)? What if the Biblical paradigm of church was that of the gathering of believers to be built up in their holy faith and prep them to go out of the confines of the gathering in order to evangelize? What if the purpose of church was not to be "hip" or comfortable but to worship and be encouraged in our mutual faith? Some would say "oh, you mean we are some kind of exclusive club!" No, I mean that perhaps, the purpose of church is to make the Church (note capital "C") equipped and bold to reach out to the outsiders, like the one who wrote this article, for example, and not bring them to church, but to Christ.

Is not the point of worship gatherings (church) to make authentic, persevering disciples who understand their sin and need of a powerful Savior, to worship Him and to go out and proclaim Him to the lost? Or is it to cheer about the numbers of bodies attending and be in awe of how "hip" the church is? Is it about catering to religious tourists or developing bona fide ambassadors for the King of Kings? What is the actual Scriptural model?

Have we preserved the dignity of God's house?
Maybe it is old school, but maybe, just maybe, the author of that article is more revealing than is comfortable.

[Tim Harlow]

I couldn’t agree with you more. Somewhere you missed the last “R” of our purpose statement. It’s no different than any other churches really; we just made them start with “R” for some dumb reason. We reach the lost and prodigals for Christ, then we “raise” them up to be disciples, and then we “release” them back into ministry to go do exactly what you are talking about. The reason we have relevant services is so that the first part of that equation can happen. And so that the people who are released to share Christ can have a place to invite those people to come and find a church that will be relevant to them.

Please note that I did not ask for the article to be written and had no control over what the guy talked about. He saw the article about Parkview being one of the fastest growing churches in the country and he wrote this from his perspective. He didn’t get to find out what really makes us tick…he was intrigued by the methods. He’d obviously never seen a contemporary church. I didn’t necessarily like or agree with all his article, I’m just sharing it on here. However, what he did find is the exact opposite of the “exclusive club” to which you refer. And for whatever reason, that is exactly what many prodigals find when they start to look for a place to find God. And the point of Parkview is to make sure that the Older Brother doesn’t get in the way of the Prodigal before he can make it back home to the Father.

“Catering to religious tourists” is a great line. And exactly what Jesus was all about. He came to “seek and save the lost.” It wasn’t the healthy that needed the doctor, it was the sick. He was constantly chided for hanging out with sinners. Call them what you want – they are our target.

Do they stay that way? Some of them do, certainly. The danger in a large church is that you can’t keep track of everyone. But I’ve seen plenty of self-serving, self-seeking, self-righteous folks in the small churches I’ve been a part of. I see God working in the lives of these people in ways that I’ve never seen before. The Holy Spirit is the one who disciples and it’s working. This reporter would have seen it if he’d looked deeper.

As for numbers, why does the book of Acts tell us that the first church started with 3,000 on the first day if it’s not a reason to celebrate? And the “Lord added to their number daily.” The first church was large – fast. And then they met together in the temple courts to enjoy their numbers, and they met together in each other’s homes – for community and discipleship.

Parkview doesn’t do a good enough job. When you grow like this, it’s hard to keep up. But if you’ll go back and see what I’ve been preaching, you’ll see that discipleship is exactly our goal. We are not “seeker driven.” We are “prodigally sensitive.” I just made that up – I think I like it.

Tim

[Paula]

I am so glad that you clarified this, because I knew I had to respond before but now I am...compelled :)
I am one of those progigals who came Home to the Father and I was drawn here...why I couldn't believe because what I expecgted was the Older Brother...the self-serving, the self-righteous, the'aren't we special we have JESUS and all those sinners are going to hell', the'what about me?'.
what happened then and since is nothing short of miraculous...the transforming Power of the Holy Spirit is undeniable in this place, the particular details behind that statement would take up far too much space...but this I know, if I had gone ANY OTHER PLACE...knowing the Father, but not the SON personally, feeling so 'unchurch-like' and found the Older Brother (first) I would never have returned.
so 'prodigal sensitive' is perfect. after so much time out in the cold and dark world,many of us are so grateful and aware of the Rescue, the Light that we only want to bring it to others. (it is a nice term Tim!)
The ACTS Church is the model, when we were moving into the new building and were asked to write on the floor that was the Scripture I wrote...and they met in the temple courts and broke bread and 'the LORD added to their number daily.
Why? because the Father wants us all Home.
Thank you!

[a]

Firstly, I want to make it clear, I come with my hat in my hand. I am wiling to be corrected. I’m not out for blood, but I am captive to truth. (It’s the only OCD part of my otherwise ADHD life;) )

Secondly thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the fact that you are willing to take a moment from your busy schedule to engage in this discussion. Perhaps it would be safer in a private setting, but a public forum has more potential for being edifying to those with opposing or similar opinions to mine. I hope the interaction will be cause for discussion with grace.

Thirdly, please understand that I it is not my intention to impugn your intentions or motivations for what you do. I do, however believe that it is healthy to step back and look at any ministry and confirm that the paradigm is biblical and not merely pragmatic. I believe that your reasons for what you do are rooted in a real desire to evangelize and touch the lost. I commend you and applaud you for that.

Paula’s testimony is riveting and I sense her passion for what God had done for her as He used PV ministry as a means to bring her to Him. God is great and sovereignly merciful. God can use a contemporary church to reach His children, or He can use a talking donkey like me, God is that powerful. She seems like a wonderful lady who is vital in God’s house.

But the issue here as I delineated is not your intentions or motives. The body of my comment sparked by the article and your response to it, had to do with the purpose of church not The Church and this according to Scripture, not ‘what works’. Please let me explain the difference in my view:
“The Church”, I define as the body of believers that God has elected from eternity from all tribes and nations. They are regenerated and believe in Jesus Christ as the only Savior. They trust in the subsitutionary atonement of His spilled blood. They trust that this same Jesus who was mangled and fastened to a cross died with them in mind. They believe in His return from the dead and triumph over death and Hell. These also rest in the truth that they will be with Him in newness of life forever. All this as recorded in the Scriptures, their ultimate and final authority. They are the ekclesia…the called out ones.

However “church”, I define as the center of corporate worship and edification of these called out ones, be it a cathedral or a catacomb. Here is where these are gathered for focus on the Savior and are taught about the glory of God and reminded of their calling. The elders, pastors, prophets etc. are there to lay block upon block, encouragement upon encouragement, conviction upon conviction for the purpose of releasing (there is your “R”) explosive communicators of the Gospel to the prodigal brothers (and sisters).

How does any of this square with Scripture? I would reference the first definition of The Church with: Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 5:23; Acts 15:22; Acts 14:23 etc.
For my second definition I would cite: 1 Cor 14:26-33
Both are combined in 1Peter 2:5

This being said, the comments seem to have melded both together. The presupposition is that church is for doing what the Church has the responsibilities to do outside church walls. And the congregants are to be built up where? In small groups? Is this where they are truly fed meat? Or even taught HOW to feed themselves? Its fine to get together and talk and fellowship and laugh, live etc. but when and from whom do the sheep learn to truly divide the Word of truth? After all, “The unfolding of your Word gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple” Ps 119:130 (btw, that’s me all the way, the simple part that is)… Its not at the gathering, because the gathering is not geared toward them, its geared toward the “prodigal”. Are the leaders in the small groups properly trained, since they would be, by default, taking the position of a “little pastor”? The small group of prodigals are trained in the faith by whom? Each other? Bless their hearts but all you would need is one delightful person with bad theology to set the whole group on the road to being shipwrecked all over again.

I agree with Paula, Acts is the Model. Lets take a close look at the model. When the day of Pentacost came, who was gathered together in one place? Acts seems to say the apostles and probably about 120 plus, all were disciples, yes? Acts 2 the Spirit comes and a the explosion of power overflows to where? The streets of Jerusalem where the “prodigals” were. What was the set up? Church is in prayer and gathered, empowered THEN the gospel is proclaimed with the intensity of white lightning!

Then the Lord added unto them 3000 souls.

What next? Act 2:43 “They devoted themselves to the apostle’s teaching, and fellowship to the breaking of bread and prayers.” Day by day attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes praising God and having favor with all the people…” They were a infectious, joyous generous lot, not “older brother” like at all and the Lord added to their numbers.

The other 13 times the gospel was preached was basically the same model. They gathered together, seeking God, focusing on Christ, filled with the Spirit, not prodigal centered. The prodigals came as the Gospel was preached fully and unashamedly with power, and with only one regard, the revealing the Father by Declaring the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said: “Go, make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Matthew 28. Making a disciple, a Christian is the Trinity’s job, and we are the means. But it is never a frivolous affair.

I am not asserting that in church, we ought ignore the outsider. We are not to give any more stigma than the gospel inherently has, but neither are we to make the holy message any less stigmatic. The cross is offensive in and of itself, we empty it of its power when we “seek to use human wisdom” 1 Cor 1:17.

Being prodigally sensitive is admirable, who can argue with that? But what does that mean? What of the gospel are we willing to edit to be prodigally sensitive?

I written a lot here, and its probably overload, but I need to add one final salient quote:

“There is a sad irony in the seeming success of many Christian churches and schools. The irony is that the more you adjust obscure Biblical doctrines to make Christian reality more attractive to unbelievers, the less Christian reality there is when they arrive. Which means that what looks like success in the short run, may, in the long run, prove to be failure. If you alter or obscure the Biblical portrait of God in order to attract converts, you don’t get converts to God, you get converts to an illusion. This is not evangelism, but deception.
One of the results of this kind of "success" is that sooner or later the world wakes up to the fact that these so-called Christian churches look so much like them and the way they think that there is no reason to go there. If you adjust your doctrine to fit the world in order to attract the world, sooner or later the world realizes that they already have what the church offers. That was the story of much of mainline Protestantism in Europe and America in the 20th century. Adjust your doctrine – or just minimize doctrine – to attract the world, and in the very process of attracting them, lose the radical truth that alone can set them free.”

My comments are offered with heaviness and respect.

a

[Tim Harlow]

Thanks for clarifying. I think I see where we differ. I see the church (ekclesia) as universal and not the body of believers that meets at one particular institution.

The terminology can be confusing. I totally agree with your definition of the church. I do not believe it resides at 183rd and Wolf. Or at any other location. The “church” is the group of people that are the bride of Christ all over the world. Parkview – like all churches - has people from the “church” and some people who are just figuring out if they want to be in the “church.” As did the book of Acts.

The gates of Hell will not prevail against the “church,” but churches are closing their doors every day because they’ve become ineffective.

What you haven’t shown me is where we have “adjusted” or “minimized” our doctrine to attract the world. Why would I do that? It’s “good news” isn’t it?

I’ve preached about discipleship, stewardship, the parables, Leviticus, Heaven and Hell – all this year. Which doctrines are we leaving out? We still have communion weekly, we baptize, we do “devote ourselves to the apostle’s teaching, and fellowship to the breaking of bread and prayers.” Day by day attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes praising God and having favor with all the people…”

If Doctrine is wearing a tie, and singing hymns – then we are missing it. But contemporary is not a matter of doctrine. Jesus used the common Greek language to talk to people because he was contemporary.

There is no way that a person could come to Parkview and find a church that “looks so much like the world that there is no reason to go there.”
That’s why they ARE coming.

All said, I do appreciate the comments. I am tracking with the issues of the 21st century church. I don’t know where it leads. I know that “good news of great joy for all people” is the message and that is attractive. The cross is not foolishness to those who are being saved. Paul said it was the Power of God!

Tim

[a]

There is an inherent danger of being considers “Pharisaic” or “nitpicky” when asked for specifics like this. Its not that I want to make a blanket comment without evidence, I will provide two instances: The sacrifice of Christ was described as “He gave His ____ing life for you” a term that I have had my mouth rapped for and yet, because of the emotion or a sense of communication, whatever, it was acceptable (for the sake of the readers, I will not spell out the word), and this to evoke emotion before communion. This was done about 2 years ago from one of your regular guest preachers. Some children were in the service that morning. Nuff said.

One more instance was when you were rather upset that some folks don’t believe that mega churches preach enough about sin, and you announced: ”Well you stink!” That got some chuckles, hey; I thought the delivery was masterful. But far from evoking a sense of spiritual mourning over our being rebels against a pure, holy and righteous God, we got a good laugh about it and went on.

These are anecdotal, I’m sure you can produce scads of people that have been deeply moved by your sermons, I have for sure. Your sermons are well crafted, witty and your personality engaging. You’re a good guy with a big heart for people, no doubt about it.

The deeper point, however is not whether you are having a series on God’s names or even the “Heaven yes, HELL no” (trying to get my kid not to parrot that one was a challenge). My purpose in the post was to challenge the idea that the ministry of the church gathering is for what it has been turned into, seeker centers. That is why I took time to define the terms I was referring to. I don’t think I have been successful.

Tim, the numbers really don’t say much more than there are lots of bodies that attend. Mormon's can say the same. There is cause to rejoice in that on the one hand, but there is a real danger on the other when the measure of success is the attendance numbers. If that is the measure then Jesus was quite the failure, read John 5 and 6. From 5000 plus seekers to 12 confused bewildered goofs, one of which betrayed Him.

Being seeker-sensitive and being seeker-oriented are quite different. The heart of the matter is: are we so seeker-focused, or prodigally minded that when we have those in our congregations that are aching for deeper spiritual food, they are forced to go it alone, without definition on what is proper, healthy and sustaining. There are many who feel this way and to say, “If you don’t like it, leave” is deeply troubling. What of them? Is there no place for them? What of the newbie that become hungry and lactose intolerant? Will they be cast off as well? Again, as I wrote before, are the small groups that are lead by other sheep that may or may not be properly trained, sufficient to teach these persons how to open up that Book and read it and live it for all its worth?

“If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of faith and of good doctrine that you have followed…15Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch of yourself and of your teaching. Persist in this and you will save both yourself and your hearers.” 1 Timothy 4:6-15

I pray for PV continued growth, but I ask God to give you fruit that will last. I pray for your reputation to be alive to stay alive and your works be complete in God’s site.
Thanks again for the time.
a

[Tim Harlow]

Dear A:

I’m glad you clarified a few things and good to know you are here and not “there.”

Can’t comment on the first deal, it wasn’t me – so sorry you were offended by it. I can assure any readers that the _______ was “freak” or “flip” and not what else might be entering your mind right now :-)

The “you stink” comment – was right on. Because that was not the only comment I made. It’s not like we don’t’ talk about the gravity of our sin around here – come on. But as to the point. Here is the problem. You think that the correct model of the church is John 5 and 6 and I think it’s Acts 2.

If the goal of the church is to screen off all the uncommitted until we get down to the select few, then I’m missing it for sure.

If the goal is the “seek and save the lost” as was Jesus true mission, then we are on track.

The methods are going to be different for everyone. Some churches want to focus only on discipleship – and more power to them IF and only IF they actually get their people to go out and evangelize.

However, having been a part of many of those churches, what I’ve seen is that it does become a group of inwardly focused people who want to sit around and eat meat all day and never actually go out and do anything with what they learn. That’s the reason most churches are declining these days. It’s not because they aren’t teaching good biblical truth, it’s because they’ve become a club for the “choir.”

I will never tolerate that. I wouldn’t waste my time on a bunch of believers who want to sit and soak. That was not the book of Acts. Nor was it Jesus. Yes, the crowd was weeded out as he approached the crucifixion. There was no one in Jesus’ church the night he was betrayed. But I don’t think that’s the model he was setting for us.

The heart of the Father and the heart of Jesus is for “all to come to repentance.” That can be done through true discipleship where the people go out and evangelize. And it can be done through Christian concerts, and Billy Graham crusades. It can be done by the Holy Spirit without anyone’s help. And it can be done through churches that care more about those outside their walls than they do themselves.

In the parable of the Lost Sheep, Jesus said that the shepherd left the 99 in the open field because he wanted to find the one lost lamb.

That’s who I am, that’s who we are. No apologies. Other Christians are going to heaven. The Lost are not.

So that will always be our focus. To say that numbers don’t matter flies in the face of the Savior who died for those numbers. NUMBERS ARE EVERYTHING! They are souls.

I don’t care how many numbers the Mormons have – or attend a Bears game. Numbers of butts in a chair on Sunday at Parkview don’t matter, unless they are an indication of the fact that many of those people will be with me for eternity. Then, numbers are everything!

t

[Paula]

Actually I have many thoughts but since I am a woman, and I like to (try) and have the last word :) I have to get at least a couple out, so hope you don't mind:

1. Prodigal as a term I'm thinking is a believer in GOD, but doesn't know the Bible, or has been 'saved' and fallen by the way side. The Lost just not being exposed at all, or fallen by the wayside. Anyway you look at it, we are all sinners before, during and after.

2. This Church is not Party Central (Ilike that one!) as one might infer from A. I know what he is saying and he raises some good points but I don't think he 'gets' us:

With Acts as the model, since my 'awakening' not my conversion, and being devoted to Prayer day and night (here a plug for the Prayer Ministry and Prayer Warrriors :), and Praying for the Church to grow so we may advance the kingdom, (i.e. 40days bathed in prayer), all of the prayer for the Church and Staff, for Services show that the model works. As the prayer helps to 'bring them in', as the 'word spreads' of what is going on here...and the Holy Spirit would not be here if we were not in Alignment, it is so that the 'explosive presentation of the Gospel (and that is where what you and Worship and all who Speak) occurs and has it's effect...the Light that spreads as the heart responds to the Trinity. AND with 'lightening speed'.
Maybe A is just not aware of all of this that occurs? The Prayer, The Outreach, The Missions Work? That is why building a Visible (as well as a not visible) prayer presence is so very cool(read Biblical) &(another pitch :)

3. I am only saying this to prove a point. I am not a dummy. I graduated from a major university with a science degree with high honors and am a very independent and analytical thinker (when I make the attempt !). I was not persuaded by any 'smoke or mirrors', even in my 'prodigity' I grasped and fully experienced as much as humanly possible The Cross (thanks to the Holy Spirit) on all levels, emotionally, spiritually AND intellectually... IN THE GUT (What was that Greek word again? )the way you present it is NOT fluffy stuff. And after much growth and committment to discipleship (again thanks to the Holy Spirit), your messages are still & always clear, compelling, and convicting.

4. GOD is working here, where GOD is working, Scripture is being followed.

So anyway, thanks, i just want you to know that we, who are open to it, are encouraged and being built up. But HEY its not about US! I would love to have time to actually study everything more, to really study in depth, and I pray someday I shall, but in the meantime it's really more about the doing than the talking...learning by doing and seeing what GOD does, getting out of the way and...
letting Him!
GOD BLESS OUR JESUS CHURCH.
Thanks for Listening!

[a]

Tim,
I know it wasn’t you. And the word was not the “F” Bomb, But for the record the word was “Frig”.
2 Sam 6: 5-15 I remember the story of Uzzah who merely touched the arc of the covenant and was struck down because he did what only the Levites were allowed to do. Uzzah only wanted to keep the arc from tipping, the motive was “pure” in the horizontal human view. But in God’s eyes it was treason. Now I am not, I repeat, I am not advocating such a thing happen to the person who said this. What I am saying is this: the person and work of Jesus is Holy, pure and to be held in radical reverence, not by the world, because the world doesn’t know Him, but by us, especially those who stand behind the sacred desk!
Leviticus 10:1-3

My being offended is no big deal, but if you gave one of your children as a sacrifice for a rebel convict and that sacrifice, that life is referred to with gutter language, wouldn’t you cringe, just a little? This was God’s Son’s holy life that was described in that way, doesn’t that mess with you? True enough, it was not you, you weren’t there, but you are the captain of this ship and are, dare I say, responsible for guarding the trust (1 Tim 6:20), yes? One may say, “oh, come on, get off it! It was only one event, it was a slip of a passionate person’s tongue, get over it, its no big deal.” I somehow do not see David saying that to God about Uzzah, or Aaron about Nadab and Abihu.

And that is what demonstrates to me that the commitment to the lost, has overshadowed the commitment to the holiness of God. It is precisely at that point that when you had preached a sermon on sin saying that “You Stink” (which I agree and do) that effectively the teeth are taken away from the message.

As for what I believe is the model of the church, I agree with you and Paula, Acts is a great model, and I would contend that we are the sequel. I referred to it as demonstrative of how great numbers of “seekers” in the biblical sense are not really seeking God at all, Romans 3:11 “No one seeks after God” But they do seek after food and entertainment. That’s what you see in Chapter 6. When 6:22 comes, Jesus’ response is telling: “Truly, Truly I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs but because you ate your fill of the loaves”…” Then they wanted more signs…v 30 Those you described in the churches you had been a part of seem to be of this vein. When Jesus said “all that the Father gives me come to me” That was Acts 2:41 and v 47b. Both Acts and John coincide, they are not dichotomies.

Forgive me, please, but those who “sit and soak” or the “frozen chosen”, how about the “frigid few”, are not who I am talking about when I was describing those who are aching for deeper spiritual food in my last post. I would have no tolerance for that either. These hungry people I am speaking of have no intention of merely sitting and soaking, they want example and encouragement to get up and contend for their faith. They want to see how the Scriptures are divided not just used as ways to see who will win the Super bowl (which I think is funny, I do have a sense of humor, contrary to popular opinion) They yearn for expository vs propositional or narrative preaching, but the idea that the bible “has to be made relevant” flies in the face of the perspicuity of Scripture itself. Show them how its done, so they can do it too. Here is a helpful article on the subject: http://thoughtsactions.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/whatever-happened-to-expository-preaching/
I think this is what Hybels figured out in this article
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek_re.html
The critics of the CGM have said this for years.

The goal of the church body is not to screen anyone. What I had explained was that I think that biblically, the gathering is for training, building, exhorting and teaching. Evangelism happens as well, to be sure, you can't teach about the Gospel without proclaiming the Gospel. But the Reaching is primarily done outside the doors, the Raising is done inside the doors which naturally leads to the Releasing. Then the cycle starts again. I thought I explained this in my earlier post. Seeking and saving the lost, is our goal on the streets of Jerusalem, Samaria and beyond. Indeed that is part of God’s plan. The main plan of God, I would contend, however is to Glorify Himself. The Gospel is God centered not man centered.

Indeed the shepherd left the 99, but just to carry the analogy out, did he leave them unattended and un protected? Did he leave his 99 unfed with the gate open? Okay, I’m a being a smart aleck here, sorry. But really, when the good shepherd goes out to find the lost sheep, can we not assume that the under shepherds are there to “Feed the flock of God entrusted to you”? 1 Peter 5:1-3

Jesus did die to save the lost. He died to save "all the Father gave" Him, that he "lose not one". He died for a great multitude without number, as great as the sand of the sea. No problem there. But that is not my point is it? My point is what you wrote in the next paragraph:” Numbers of butts in a chair on Sunday at Parkview don’t matter, unless they are an indication of the fact that many of those people will be with me for eternity” I agree. So I preach to all men that I may save some. Notice, please that my problem was numbers as a measure of success. They are not. The standard is empty at that point.

But I do affirm to any reader that your motive is right on. The method, is not as big a deal as the consistency of the message. We don’t care what the Southtown says, but again, to be consistent, according to this paradigm, we have to care. The Southtowners are part of the “lost sheep” therefore…

Tim, thanks for the interaction. I’m thankful that it got some neuro-transmitters jittering.

Paula, thanks for the great witness and testimony. You come across as a smart and wise person. It is fabulous that you are so busy in prayer. Have you considered putting your analytical mind to work in leading a Bible study of sorts? Just a thought. :)

a

[We Are...Penn State email list]

"I know it wasn’t you. And the word was not the “F” Bomb, But for the record the word was “Frig”."

a, I'm a little disappointed that you would imply it WAS an F-bomb in your post of November 28th.

"These hungry people I am speaking of have no intention of merely sitting and soaking, they want example and encouragement to get up and contend for their faith. They want to see how the Scriptures are divided not just used as ways to see who will win the Super bowl (which I think is funny, I do have a sense of humor, contrary to popular opinion)."

We have excellent teaching pastors, but half an hour a week will NEVER be sufficient. That's why we place such an emphasis on getting people into Small Groups, to the extent that we have a pastor whose full-time job is facilitating Small Group Ministry.

These Small Groups are where the "heavy lifting" takes place. By its very nature the sermon is not a place for dialog, therefor we rely on "mature Christians" to lead Small Groups and help those who aren't as far along in their walk in faith to understand more about God's Word.

We encourage everyone to get some kind of study Bible and drink The Word daily. This is an eye-opening experience for some of our members who come from a different faith tradition!

"They yearn for expository vs propositional or narrative preaching, but the idea that the bible “has to be made relevant” flies in the face of the perspicuity of Scripture itself."

I fell asleep during more than my fair share of boring sermons before coming to Parkview. It's hard to find the "perspicuity of Scripture itself" when your head is doing the dead chicken.

I have often said that a major reason for Parkview's success is that we make a dusty, 2,000-year-old book relevant to life in 21st-century America. I don't need "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sermons, I need to know how to apply the Bible to the challenges I face every day.

The world tells me to openly lust after half-dressed babes; I need to know why I should say, "Satan get behind me!"

The world says to cut corners and go along when my boss asks me to lie to a customer; I need to hear that it's OK to say "no," even at the risk of my job.

The world tells me to dump my wife at the first hint of marital discourse; I long for someone to tell me why quitting isn't part of God's plan.

Not only do I need to hear these things from the pulpit--uh, stage--I need to hear them in Small Group and I need to surround myself with a Band of Brothers who will hold me accountable.

I see these things happening at Parkview, I didn't see them at my previous, mainstream churches. But boy were they ever reverent during the worship service!

"Notice, please that my problem was numbers as a measure of success. They are not. The standard is empty at that point."

Completely disagree that numbers have no place in measuring success. The number of people being taught on a weekend, the number of people baptized over the course of a year, the number of people who are "sweating for Jesus" in Sports Ministry (my own personal bias!), the number of people in Small Groups, the number of people who attend Celebrate Recovery, the percentage of people who tithe...all of these are valuable metrics. How can you know where you're going if you don't know where you've been?

a, thanks for a thought-provoking dialog.

[a]

Mia Culpa if my implications were of a NC17 rating and not of the PG 13 variety.
Has the real issue there been avoided though? Please note that my objection had to do with the use of a questionable term for referring to the Sacrifice of Christ, and how, even if it was done with a passionate, unquestionable motive, the Holiness of God had been compromised in the name of “relevance”. I pointed out how in Scripture, God takes that very seriously and so ought we. Since there was no attempt to straighten that out, then the idea that preaching that sin is taken seriously rings a little hollow.

I have posted earlier how small groups are wonderful but insufficient for the training of the saints, IF the ones leading the group are untrained in the faith. Perhaps the group you are a part of, Penn, has a well trained leader, you may be the leader himself, but given the fact that there are people still hungering for deeper food and example, who are also in small groups, (if the newest Reveal stats have any merit in this regard, see "Reveal, Where Are You", Hawkins and Parkinson, 2007 pg 52-53), then we can say that there is a little inconsistency.

(an aside) It is no great discovery that Parkview has taken the Willow Creek/Saddleback paradigm regarding church growth. 40 days of Purpose, the Purpose driven Church, now since Willow has found that its paradigm is flawed, they’ve developed the newest Reveal Study. Unfortunately the very thing that is demonstrable that caused Willow to reevaluate their position is still firmly ensconced in their efforts to “Shift”. That idea is that the church is a product to be marketed. I do not agree with that idea.

“I fell asleep during more than my fair share of boring sermons before coming to Parkview. It's hard to find the "perspicuity of Scripture itself" when your head is doing the dead chicken.” I love the picture of a “dead chicken” very funny.
Have you ever read what happened to a fellow named Eutychus? Acts 20:7-10. Poor Paul must have been doing some expository teaching, it cost a man his life!
All kidding aside, I was more concerned about the idea of the Bible as a “dusty 2,000 year old book” and how it is “Parkview’s success” in making it relevant to “21st century America”

Forgive me, but, as a believer the Word is anything but dusty, as a non-believer, God was not only dusty but my enemy (Romans 5:10a), so no amount of “making it relevant” would have changed the very nature of my status before God. It was God who opened my eyes when the Gospel was proclaimed. This is true for every believer. Expository sermons, or sermons that lay out the Scripture explain and its meaning is not a “angels dancing on a head of a pin” sermon. Is not the Bible alive? Sharper than any two edged sword? Is not the Scripture sufficient? Is it not the very breath of God? (2Tim 3:16) Does God have asthma or did He stutter? No, sir, I believe that God speaks clearly and when His Words are presented, (1Cor 1:17) they produce what God intends, living disciples.

You want to know why not to lust? Why not to cheat? Steal? And why its not a part of God’s plan? God has already said why. He has already laid the foundation for you to receive them, “to him who has ears, let them hear”. Galatians 5:16-24 Romans 8:1-8 says it clearly in 2000 year old dusty language;) Now that we know, we need to obey.

The time of the gathering of the Church body to Worship God is about God, not about how to get my needs met, that happens sure, but the focus is on the Cross. Christ’s body is organic and living in and through us, we worship and celebrate and become built up during the gathering. We continue the depth in the small groups and hit the streets with the Gospel and gather in God’s lost sheep.

Finally, its not about acting “reverent” it is about a regenerated mindset. Is God Holy? Is God King? Is our time gathered for us to extol Him and then He feeds us from His Word, we then obey?

An African American, blue collar working man with a family to feed was asked by his youngest son, “Daddy, why do we get all dressed up to go to church on Sundays”, The father replied “Because, son, we are going to see the King, its proper to dress in our best, because He gave us His best.”

Thanks for your post.
a

[Tim Harlow]

I’m just reading this on Tuesday. But it’s interesting because hopefully you heard me preach this weekend on this very thing – of listening to the Word of God. Because it has the answers you need.

So I think we’re on the same page on that one. No, I don’t do it expository, but I teach more scripture than you’ll find in most pulpits. I used 25 scriptures in my sermon this weekend. That’s more than any expository preacher can cover.

As for the dressing up – I just don’t’ care what the man told his son. Scripture does not tell us to dress up. As a matter of fact, Paul said he had “become all things to all men in order to save some.”

And that we are free to observe or not observe special days or special diets – as long as we weren’t stumbling blocks to someone else. I really believe the same applies to our dress. If you and your family want to dress up – do it. It just can’t be a standard. I have to dress down. It’s imperative to me that people not see me as a polished TV guy. But a normal everyday person who lives where they live. I don’t’ want them to think they need to go out and buy clothes so that they can come to church.

But that takes me back to the prodigals again…

The older brother would have told him to clean up before he came in. The Father told him to come in and THEN gave him the new robe.

t

[A Case in Point]

AMEN to THAT...AGAIN :)

[a]

Hi Tim,

I think I may have not been clear on my point with the illustration. That happens. My point was that there was a sense of reverence and awe in this father toward God that he wanted to express to his son, in spite of his lack of funds, in his own simple way, and thus give God his best. Do you see my point? Yes the Father will take us as we are, he does give us the robes of His son, all my story was to point out was the idea that we are, as God's people going to worship our GOD, not anything or anyone less, and so our "heart dress" as it were is to be our best. We do as much for earthly dignitaries. I thought the story was touching.
I'm sorry I was so unclear.

No, unfortunately I missed your talk. I'll listen to the MP3.
As for how much Scripture you may have used, awesome. I applaud you. But in humble defense of expository, the point of exposition is to lay out and unfold the Scripture in its context and application so the text would say what God intends it to say. That is what I believe to be the miracle of the Word of God, it speaks in its own setting and God applies it effectively. God makes His Word relevant and fresh in spite of our limitations and "wisdom" Sometimes one text can do that as well as 25.

Tim, I believe that you are an honest man with integrity. I do not wish to steer you away from what God has called you to do. But it is healthy to challenge paradigms, even healthy ones, don't you think?

That was the point to my critque in the first place. That there are people who hunger for more depth and are frustrated does not automatically catagorize them as the older brother or a dissenter. It could be that they are genuinely wanting for things to be taken up a notch, in a direction that perhaps they feel is neglected. I could be wrong.

Got to go and earn a living.

a

[Tim Harlow]

Good enough.

Obviously I enjoyed the dialogue or I wouldn’t have bothered writing all this back.

It’s a very important topic to me, as you can see.

Thanks for playing nice in the dialogue and I hope you stick it out. We are always tweaking things here and we will be rolling out more discipleship stuff in January.

Blessings,
Tim

[a]

I appreciate it. I hope it was helpful.
Blessings
a

[Lisa - a willing number]

I have been following this dialogue and I am quite impressed to say the least. I felt a little intimidated by the well educated information that was going back and forth and, quite honestly, didn't feel 'smart' enough or educated enough to respond to any of it. I don't have a doctorate or a degree from any university. I can't quote very many Scriptures although I know a lot of the stories and messages, and most of the time I can say it was from the old testament or the new testament, but I hope that I can add a little flavor to the dialogue and a little bit of a different perspective. Here is what I do have...I have Christ and salvation, and I owe a lot of that to the people at Parkview who embraced a single mom with 4 children with love and acceptance...who helped her to get through one of the hardest years of her life financially by helping to provide some needed things...who taught her about the Bible and taught her children about the Bible so that we could all learn together. These same people who helped me to grow released me to help others to grow. Then when I had the most emotionally difficult year, the people at Parkview helped to nurse me back to health and supported me and encouraged me. As I seek to grow deeper in Christ and pray about it, I have been led to a great depth through Parkview. Seek and you shall find - what are you seeking, and are you looking for the answer? If so, you will find depth in Parkview. So if it was me included in the numbers that Tim is ministering to and praying to find a home in Parkview, not dressing up for, giving Bible based truths to, teaching, encouraging, then I will glady be one of those numbers, and thank God that there was room for 1 more that first day, and that they made room for the others I have been able to bring along with me. I think everybody is doing a great job with what they have been given, and there is more to learn/do/figure out, but I think there are worse problems than having too many seeking God and finding salvation. Thanks for all you do, Tim, and the rest of the staff and volunteers who make this all possible, and saved a wretch like me along the way ;)

[a]

Lisa,
Thank you for your witness. I hope that God will continue to minister to you through the means He provided for you. I pray you grow in grace and that your children will be fully nurtured by you and His Word.

Peace.
a

[Eric]

Wow, one thing I am so drawn to Parkview by is to see how the Holy Spirit is definitely changing lives and to see the heart for people and the vast array of ministries meeting people where they are at. Lisa it is so touching to read your post. I remember when I first started coming to Parkview I was so impressed that they had a Divorce ministry, and having grown up in a single parent home, I know how rare it is for churches to minister to people in that situation, even churches that had every Bible class imaginable didn't have a divorce care ministry. I think it was great they had all those Bible classes before worship service and corporate Wednesday night prayer meetings and it wasn't just the faithful few but everybody in the church was involved, but why didn't they have something to meet the needs of single mothers? I think that says something about Parkview's heart for reaching hurting people in the world and drawing them into Christ and Christian community.

Hope you don't mind too much my two cents. I read through all the posts and it seems like the different perspectives weighed against each other here could have a really good "iron sharpening iron" effect. It's good to read all the great points made by "a" and Pastor Tim. I love a's heart for reverence for God and his Word. I love Pastor Tim's Jesus heart for people and for keeping it real. And it's always a special blessing to read what Paula has to say. It seems everyone has a lot of good input on what the church is supposed to be and things we should definitely strive to live up to. Maybe Parkview is stronger at reaching the seekers and prodigals than it is at raising them. And I'm sure Jesus is greatly pleased with Parkview's fruit in that. Jesus was definitely about seeking and saving the lost. But I hope we don't think that's what he was all about. Didn't he spend just as much time actually getting involved personally in the lives of the 12 and putting a great deal of focus on growing them as disciples? I think that's the balance every church needs to work on, and it seems Parkview knows where it can do even better.

From what I've seen there are elements to Parkview's services that are edifying to seekers as well as ancient Christians. Every service I go to God touches my heart and speaks something new to me (and I've been going to church several times a week since I was an embryo). Parkview is such a unique place in that the harvest field Jesus spoke of is actually right there in church! And the fields are ripe for a harvest. It's always refreshing to see the balanced response church leadership has in defending the mission God has given and the methods they believe God allows them to accomplish it with while humbly acknowledging at the same time what shortcomings there may be. What a great example for the approach each of us should have.

I could be at work and 9 times out of 10 the people around me couldn't give a care about discussing anything spiritual. And those few times they will actually engage in conversation the gospel is met with rejection. A church like Parkview is actually drawing seekers and prodigals in and people are looking for someone to connect with on a spiritual level. By the way, "prodigally sensitive" could be the next new catchphrase for a church ministry focus, way to be creative. It's a good way to describe your heart for ministry in that respect.

So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that the church is reaching the world by drawing them in instead of going out into the world. And really Parkview is doing both. Look at I Corinthians 14:22-25. It lets us know that it's not only practically good but biblically good for a church to be seeker sensitive and to do things a certain way because of unbelievers coming into that corporate gathering of the church. One thing that keeps me at Parkview is that I've had such opportunities in youth group and young adult group to reach out to people in that way. And of course it is possible with all the people coming in that some slip through the cracks. Could it be that some people hear about Jesus and think he's great but never understand their sin or need for a Savior? Or that some people are more focused on connecting people to the church than they are on connecting people in a relationship with Christ? Isn’t it possible that church regulars are getting family and friends to go to church, but wouldn't know how to share the gospel of salvation with them, or don't even know it themselves? Sure, it's all possible in any church. There's just more people here so there's more possibilities. The harvest is ripe, so let's get busy.

[Paula]

Our Church...in Alignment that draws:
'You are the Light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Our Shepherd:
Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives Light to all who are in the House.

Our Disciples:
Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your Good works and glorify your Father in Heaven.
-Matthew 5:13-16

and for you also dear Eric:
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see GOD."- Matthew 5:8

GOD BLESS OUR JESUS CHURCH.

[a]

Friends,

A final (for now:)) installment:
I would like to reference a couple of helpful articles to consider on this issue that I have found quite interesting.

http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH99/NH9904a.html
http://www.the-highway.com/worship_Godfrey.html
http://www.redeemer2.com/resources/papers/evangelisticworship.pdf

I encourage you all to read them and see if the Scriptures used are in context and if the perspectives presented have merit, even if you disagree with the conclusions.

There's alot of reading involved, but nothing that will be unprofitable. At the very least you and I will have a deeper understanding and appreciation for what God's will and plan is for communal worship and evangelism.

If there is anything I had hoped to accomplish in our discussions, it was the sparking of the fires of worship to our God for His honor.

I agree with Dr.Robert Godfrey when he says, "We cannot be casual about matters of worship. They are too important. We need to be thoughtful and biblical. To do that we need to shoulder our personal responsibility to study and pray about worship".

Thanks
a